[ch33s3r]

Why do we have to play HoN at every LAN? I understand there has been a lack of good games released recently, but do we seriously need to have this game in the games list every time? I liked the way it was back in the good ol' days when there was more variety in the games we played at LANs.

[ninjafish]

You dont have to play HoN, but there are people who enjoy it.

[Brain?!]

ninjafish, on 16 February 2010 - 06:54 PM, said:

You dont have to play HoN, but there are people who enjoy it.

I think the question is less, "Why does HoN get played," and more, "Why does HoN get put on the official games list for every single LAN." I can see his point, and I agree. In the past we have made a point of trying to ensure that the games lists varied from LAN to LAN. Lately there has been a lot of repetition in what gets put on the list, and that's not really a good thing.

[ch33s3r]

Brain?!, on 16 February 2010 - 07:25 PM, said:

I think the question is less, "Why does HoN get played," and more, "Why does HoN get put on the official games list for every single LAN."

Yes, that was my point. I also know that this was mentioned in another thread to which Hiro replied saying we are sponsored by the company that made HoN. Does that mean we are required now to play HoN at every LAN? That seems like something that should have been asked at a meeting...you know, where the members could have a say in who might be able to dictate what games we do or don't play. Why would we allow ourselves to be sponsored by a company if it means they get to dictate what games we play?

[Gamma]

It was only an official game for this LAN and the first LAN of the semester. The first LAN was because I still have a ton of keys and people were interested in playing it. It is on this LAN, because we are hopefully going to have a tournament and possibly prizes. I don't mean to force games on people, but I only added it, not put it in place of something else.

At any LAN, people are free to do whatever they want. I know people keep talking about voting on games, but we've actually seen that it doesn't work out the way people imagine. We just keep seeing the same games every time, and then people get pissy when we try to play other games. As you can see from the servers thread, you can't satisfy everyone.

[Brain?!]

gammasts, on 16 February 2010 - 09:33 PM, said:

It was only an official game for this LAN and the first LAN of the semester. The first LAN was because I still have a ton of keys and people were interested in playing it. It is on this LAN, because we are hopefully going to have a tournament and possibly prizes. I don't mean to force games on people, but I only added it, not put it in place of something else.

Actually it was on the official games list for every LAN thus far (I believe this will be our third). For the second LAN, it was specifically listed in the RTS timeslot. And if you want to go back further than that, it was on the games list for the last LAN of the last semester, too.

gammasts, on 16 February 2010 - 09:33 PM, said:

At any LAN, people are free to do whatever they want. I know people keep talking about voting on games, but we've actually seen that it doesn't work out the way people imagine. We just keep seeing the same games every time, and then people get pissy when we try to play other games. As you can see from the servers thread, you can't satisfy everyone.

It would not be difficult to come up with a system that works around this (i.e., don't allow a game to show up on a games list twice in a row). I think a voting system would work just fine if implemented properly.

Furthermore, I think it's a bit irresponsible of you to downplay your role as S2 rep. You might as well say it: we're playing HoN because they're giving you free stuff.

This post has been edited by Brain?!: 16 February 2010 - 10:05 PM

[Nes]

Brain?!, on 16 February 2010 - 10:04 PM, said:

(i.e., don't allow a game to show up on a games list twice in a row).

Team.

Fortress.

2.

[cyb.tachyon]

Gamma and Brain!? skimmed around the issue but I'd just like to reiterate to address complaints:

LANKnights/PC Gaming Club at UCF event Official Games Lists are a convenience that is created and displayed in order to assist attendees in finding reasonable timeslots to play popular and recently released games with each-other as well as providing a venue for informing attendees about official tournaments and prizes.


Nowhere do we state attendees must play all, if any of the games listed on our events information pages or displays during the event. In fact, quite a few attendees come each time just to play a single game (i.e. World of Warcraft) and socialize during the event. As Brain!? and Gamma have mentioned, LANKnights Staff is working on a voting system that will allow RSVP'd attendees to vote on games lists for upcoming events, and we hope that will help solve any issues where games listed at the event are targeting only a small portion of attendees.

Thank you for your interest and opinion.

[ch33s3r]

If the games list doesn't indicate what games are going to be played at the LAN, then what is the point of the games list? Why not list EVERY game that might be played? Why list any games at all?

I don't buy it. The truth is people do tend to follow the "official games" that are played, and I think you guys know that. I am sensing some bias here. Whether it has to do with favoritism toward HoN or just the desire to get some "cool free stuff," I feel like some of you are, frankly, being disingenuous.

[Brain?!]

cyb.tachyon, on 17 February 2010 - 12:25 AM, said:

Gamma and Brain!? skimmed around the issue but I'd just like to reiterate to address complaints:

LANKnights/PC Gaming Club at UCF event Official Games Lists are a convenience that is created and displayed in order to assist attendees in finding reasonable timeslots to play popular and recently released games with each-other as well as providing a venue for informing attendees about official tournaments and prizes.


Nowhere do we state attendees must play all, if any of the games listed on our events information pages or displays during the event. In fact, quite a few attendees come each time just to play a single game (i.e. World of Warcraft) and socialize during the event.

Implying that the games list doesn't officially represent the games we will be playing is a bit silly. Historically, games that are featured on the list have been the focus of each LAN. If the purpose of the games list is solely to display a few games people "might" be interested in, then it certainly has not been used as such. And while people may come to the LAN and play single-player games, I would argue that they do so because they think that no good multiplayer games are being played.

And even if the list was only there to serve the purpose you mentioned, that still doesn't address the issue of the lack of variation. We have rather consistently seen the same games listed, and lately the problem has been getting worse.

cyb.tachyon, on 17 February 2010 - 12:25 AM, said:

As Brain!? and Gamma have mentioned, LANKnights Staff is working on a voting system that will allow RSVP'd attendees to vote on games lists for upcoming events, and we hope that will help solve any issues where games listed at the event are targeting only a small portion of attendees.

Gamma didn't actually mention a voting system. He actually did kind of the opposite by implying that such a system would be prone to failure:

gammasts, on 16 February 2010 - 09:33 PM, said:

I know people keep talking about voting on games, but we've actually seen that it doesn't work out the way people imagine.

The whole "people keep talking about" wording seems to imply that such a system will not be implemented.

[Mar]

I thoroughly agree with Brain and Cheez. While it is true that people are not "required" to play games on the games list, it has nearly always been the case that the games list is what the masses tend to follow, which to my understanding was the whole point of the games list. I think a lot more thought needs to go into these lists at the very least. I'm pretty confident that many others besides myself would like to see a solid voting system, and I agree with brain in saying that it would not be very difficult to implement. At this rate it's not really even worth it for me to go to the lans any more, as we're playing the same few games, half of which I don't own. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who feels this way either.

[Zenebatos]

I dont have L4D.
I dont have L4D2.
I dont have BC2.
I dont have CS:S.

Guess what I do have?
Neotokyo, Eternal Silence, TF2, HoN, and Starcraft. Whenever these games are on the game list, I play them. Whenever something like L4D or the ones above are on the list, I just chill and play something else. The fact that HoN is in the game list does NOT specifically mean ANYTHING. Like tachyon said, the game list is just a suggestion to go of off. If there is a game being played during a specific time slot that I dont like/dont have, I'll play something else. If I feel I need more people to play with, I'll ask around the room. Even then, during HoN play times I only see around 10 or 15 of us playing, everybody else is playing something else.

The projector in front of the room has a "Free Play" section for a reason. USE IT!
And, if it's already there and not enough people are playing it... ASK AROUND THE ROOM! You'd be amazed the things you could do if you would open your mouth and ask a few people if they would like to join you in a match or something....

EDIT:
Also Ch33s3r, if you're really worried about variety at the lans, dont just complain... do something about it! Suggest a game! Find a new mod and show it to us! The LAN event threads in the forums are there for a reason: for people to submit ideas for the LAN(and to troll terran). Game lists are never finalized until about a week or week and 1/2 before the actual LAN. I went through the the thread earlier, and only Terran suggested an actual game.

This post has been edited by Zenebatos: 17 February 2010 - 03:06 PM

[ch33s3r]

I think you miss the point, Zenebatos.

[quote name='Zenebatos' date='17 February 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1266436573' post='101833']
The fact that HoN is in the game list does NOT specifically mean ANYTHING. Like tachyon said, the game list is just a suggestion to go of off.
[/quote]
Read above posts.

Clearly, I'm not the only one in the club that feels the variety in the recent LANs has been severely lacking. As Mar stated,

[quote name='Mar']
At this rate it's not really even worth it for me to go to the lans any more, as we're playing the same few games
[/quote]
That's exactly how I feel. Additionally, your point doesn't address the main issue of this thread which is that HoN has been on the last three games lists "because we are sponsored." I could elaborate but I'd just be repeating what has already been said in this thread.

[quote name='Zenebatos' date='17 February 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1266436573' post='101833']
Also Ch33s3r, if you're really worried about variety at the lans, dont just complain... do something about it! Suggest a game!
[/quote]

I've suggested games in the past and I won't do so in this thread because your argument implies that the reason HoN has been in the games list so much lately is because of the lack of games being suggested by members such as myself. That's kind of naive.
I would no longer like to see HoN in every games list in future LANs, so I created a thread about it. I'm not "just complaining" to be an ass. I want to see change. Hence, I am "doing something about it" as you suggested.

[Gamma]

I agree with you ch33s3r. It went actually on the list last time (tachyon added it as an example). I don't want to see games repeated, but at the same time you can't disclude games just because they are popular. I will make sure games (including HoN) aren't on every LAN list from now on. HON just made sense this LAN because of the timing that S2 wanted a scrimmage and requests from members outside of the forums.

[ch33s3r]

[quote name='gammasts']
I don't want to see games repeated, but at the same time you can't disclude games just because they are popular.
[/quote]

[quote name='Zenebatos' date='17 February 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1266436573' post='101833']
During HoN play times I only see around 10 or 15 of us playing, everybody else is playing something else.
[/quote]
...doesn't seem like it's that popular.

[quote name='gammasts']
I will make sure games (including HoN) aren't on every LAN list from now on.
[/quote]
Good. Thank you.

[quote name='gammasts']
HON just made sense this LAN because of the timing that S2 wanted a scrimmage and requests from members outside of the forums.
[/quote]
Still doesn't excuse the number of consecutive times this game has been in the list, but I won't niggle so long as the endless HoN stops.

[Thunderg0d]

An interesting outcome I am forseeing for HoN. The game has been in free "beta" for at least 6 months...I forget the actual start timeframe for it. Pretty much the game itself is a complete work IMO in terms of the needed functionality. If they hope to get any return on this game, they need to make it "pay or go away" soon or the ones that have played since start of beta (which most may already have done or feel this way...) will feel they played the value out of the game already and will move on without paying...with some potentially painful losses for S2.

I'm sure they've done decent with preorders and probably a small percentage of the preorders will never play the "final product" game as they are bored with the genre. Interest in the game is slipping, as hinted by our community. If you want to do S2 a favor Gamma, get these opinions over to their marketing department to save S2 from making a financial nightmare.

Maybe a little overdramatic, but I think realistic.

[ninjafish]

Regardless of whats on the list, people will always lean towards playing games that are fun and easy/cheap to get. It basically comes down to games you have to buy because everyone also bought that game and games that you can get for free. You might feel that this is not the best way to determine what games are played, but I think its pretty close to reality.

For example, at this point we all pretty much have TF2. If someone new joins the club, we might recommend it to them because its fun, its cheap, its played frequently and it gives you access to all the free mods if they didn't already have a source game. HoN also fits the description of a game that is both fun (personal tastes vary) and free (at the moment), so its an easy choice as people can instantly get it at any time during a lan for free.

Then there is the other category, of full retail priced games that are worth buying en mass and as a result most people buy. L4D1 was a good example when it first came out, pretty much everyone bought it because it was awesome. CS:S, TF2, L4D were all good examples of "Hey everyone has this game, so its easy to play at lans".

Personally I think MW2 would have been the next game if activision hadn't killed it on the PC. Now it looks like Bad Company 2 might be that game, but I guess we will have to see how it is by the end of the beta.

I can understand wanting to play new games, especially if those new games are quality free mods that everyone can get, but I'm not sure I understand why that means HoN shouldn't be on the list. That said, just because its not on the list doesn't mean people wont play it either, its not like starcraft is on the game list every lan but there are almost always a few games that still goes on. I thought it was on there more because there wasn't a specific game to replace it with, and it was a reminder to people that we have beta keys for a fairly new game if they did want to play it.

Like Mar said, if he doesn't have most of the games on the list whats the point of him going? By having a game list that is fun and easily accessible it allows for more people to participate.


TLDR: HoN is currently free and enjoyable for many (maybe?), so until we find a specific game to replace it with, whats the point of removing it from the game list.

This post has been edited by ninjafish: 17 February 2010 - 11:11 PM

[Brain?!]

ninjafish, on 17 February 2010 - 11:09 PM, said:

(TerranUp-sized-post goes here)

TLDR: HoN is currently free and enjoyable for many (maybe?), so until we find a specific game to replace it with, whats the point of removing it from the game list.

So... you would argue that we should play the same games over and over just because they are free? Sacrifice variation in the games we play just because one or two games are common or easier to get?

Even if price and availability were primary concerns, the are plenty of alternative games that are very cheap or free. Off the top of my head: Neotokyo; Dystopia; Eternal Silence; Pirates, Vikings & Knights; Suicide Survival; Zombie Panic; Empires; HL2 Deathmatch. Those are all free. On the cheap side there are plenty of alternatives too; Day of Defeat: Source and Red Orchestra are each under $10. Even more games are available for $20 or less (for example, Killing Floor). There really is no reason for having the same game on the games list for five LANs in a row.

[Aaron123]

Brain?!, on 18 February 2010 - 02:05 PM, said:

So... you would argue that we should play the same games over and over just because they are free? Sacrifice variation in the games we play just because one or two games are common or easier to get?

The fact of the matter is that we have a decent amount of people who play HoN at the LANs. Not enough, in my opinion, to justify dedicating a whole timeslot to it alone, which we don't do to begin with--this is why we have alternative games. Asking why we play HoN at every LAN is like asking why we play TF2 at every LAN: A good group of people like them and play them. Honestly, Gamma shouldn't have to relent just because 3 guys who don't like HoN think it shouldn't be consistent at every LAN. This thread is a guise for people who don't like HoN to try and get it off the games list championing as though most people hate HoN or as though the fact that we're playing the same games people genuinely like playing is somehow making our LANs suffer. This just makes it worse for the people who actually enjoy playing HoN, which is a sizeable fraction of our playerbase at LANs.

You could argue that the fact we're being sponsored by S2 Games has something to do with it, but you don't see us playing Savage 1/2 at every LAN (which I would love), and you wouldn't see us playing Runescape at every LAN if we were sponsored by Jagex.

Also take into consideration that HoN games generally take 45 minutes to an hour per match. Considering my own case where I would hate to play HoN for a whole LAN (I would want to play others games also later on and would see otherwise as a wasted LAN), I would play probably 2-3 HoN games max per LAN. You can easily get tons more matches of just about any other game on our gameslist, and it's only fitting that we should have HoN at each/most LANs so our players can get more full games and LAN experiences in, as opposed to a game like TF2 where you can get a good amount of matches in in just one LAN.

This post has been edited by Aaron123: 18 February 2010 - 08:26 PM

[Brain?!]

Aaron123, on 18 February 2010 - 08:14 PM, said:

The fact of the matter is that we have a decent amount of people who play HoN at the LANs.

I believe Zenebatos said there are "10 to 13" people who play. I don't want to track down the quote; Cheeser already did in an earlier post. Considering LANs are 50-ish people on average, does "10 to 13" players justify having it on every games list for the past 5 LANs?

Aaron123, on 18 February 2010 - 08:14 PM, said:

Not enough, in my opinion, to justify dedicating a whole timeslot to it alone, which we don't do to begin with--this is why we have alternative games.

Actually, in three of the four past LANs (not including this one), HoN has had a dedicated time slot. The single exception was the last LAN, when it was officially listed as a game in the "free play" time slot.

Aaron123, on 18 February 2010 - 08:14 PM, said:

Asking why we play HoN at every LAN is like asking why we play TF2 at every LAN: A good group of people like them and play them.

Went over the numbers game once already. Also, comparing HoN's playerbase to TF2's is kind of silly. Pretty much everybody at the LAN plays TF2. Not everybody plays HoN. That aside, in my opinion TF2 shouldn't be played at every LAN either. The only reason I don't push to have it removed more often is because most people play. Most people do not play HoN.

Aaron123, on 18 February 2010 - 08:14 PM, said:

Honestly, Gamma shouldn't have to relent just because 3 guys who don't like HoN think it shouldn't be consistent at every LAN. This thread is a guise for people who don't like HoN to try and get it off the games list championing as though most people hate HoN or as though the fact that we're playing the same games people genuinely like playing is somehow making our LANs suffer. This just makes it worse for the people who actually enjoy playing HoN, which is a sizeable fraction of our playerbase at LANs.

You missed the point of the thread entirely. WE ARE NOT BASHING HoN. Nobody in this thread has said that the game is bad or that the game sucks or that we hate it and want it gone. We recognize the fact that SOME PEOPLE MIGHT LIKE HoN and that, just like any other game, it deserves a dedicated timeslot - SOMETIMES. Our main complaint is that HoN has been featured on the official games list for five LANs in a row (counting this one). Doesn't that seem excessive? All we want is a little variation to make the LANs more interesting.

Aaron123, on 18 February 2010 - 08:14 PM, said:

You could argue that the fact we're being sponsored by S2 Games has something to do with it, but you don't see us playing Savage 1/2 at every LAN (which I would love), and you wouldn't see us playing Runescape at every LAN if we were sponsored by Jagex.

We're not playing Savage because it's not their new, shiny game. HoN is their new, shiny game. They're trying to garner a playerbase before the game goes retail. This is the reason why Gamma has received boxes upon boxes of HoN swag to distribute, and this is also why it's suddenly become a prominent game that rivals TF2 in terms of time slots it's been given.

Aaron123, on 18 February 2010 - 08:14 PM, said:

Also take into consideration that HoN games generally take 45 minutes to an hour per match. Considering my own case where I would hate to play HoN for a whole LAN (I would want to play others games also later on and would see otherwise as a wasted LAN), I would play probably 2-3 HoN games max per LAN. You can easily get tons more matches of just about any other game on our gameslist, and it's only fitting that we should have HoN at each/most LANs so our players can get more full games and LAN experiences in, as opposed to a game like TF2 where you can get a good amount of matches in in just one LAN.

Not exactly sure what you are trying to get across here. Are you saying that playing HoN requires more time, therefore we should play it more often than other games? You're giving priority consideration to how many rounds are played, rather than the amount of time spent on a game? I can't say I particularly agree with your logic. Time spent on a game is time spent on a game. The fact that one round of HoN equals two or three rounds of TF2 is irrelevant.